--- "Donald" wrote:
I also feel that these tricks are using programming mistakes. If the program was in a testing phase, then I would feel the programming mistakes should be fixed. But the program was released a long time ago. So I feel it is fair to use such tricks, since it would be impractical to force people not to, as mentioned above. There are lots of things that are in LaserTank that were probably programming mistakes. Laser shots can sometimes go through a moving LT. Sometimes a moving LT can be killed from an AT that is 2 squares away; sometimes it can't. A laser shot can put a movable block or AT under the LT. To me, all of these things are not logical and, except for the last one, are difficult for me to understand well enough to predict. A vast number of levels use such things.
Having the availability of such tricks does allow the designers to create more difficult levels. Unless the level is such where it is obvious no other alternative exists or there are so few things to try (such as in that Poko Tricks level 11), I will never solve levels where the timing of shots is not logical to me and I would never rate such levels as Easy. And that is okay for me. I am glad there are more difficult levels for the expert solvers to solve, even if I will never solve them. I am also glad there are ratings for levels so that I can stick with Easy levels and avoid most Medium, Hard, and Deadly levels. There are lots of Easy levels for me to solve.
I disagree with the listed "actions that are built into LT". If an AT is in a tunnel that already has something in the other end of the tunnel, it can be killed and then it moves when the other end becomes empty. Also, if a movable block is moving on ice and it gets hit by a laser shot, it does not stop if there is ice on the opposite side of where it was hit, and nor should it stop in my opinion. In Poko Tricks level 11, I actually do not have a problem with the AT still moving when it gets killed. For me, it is a killing shot rather than a pushing shot. I also do not have a problem with the killed AT stopping when it gets shot again. Since it is already killed, that is a pushing shot and not a killing shot. For me, there are 2 other things that are illogical in that level. First, after the AT stops at M13, it should sink, being thin ice. If it was regular ice instead of thin ice, then I feel the entire AT movement is reasonable. The other thing that is illogical to me in that level is the laser shot firing and collision checking. If the LT moves to B5, then shoots the B6 AT, then moves to C5, then the LT will be killed by the P11 AT. But the LT does not killed by the P11 AT when the B6 AT is moving, even though to me it seems like the B6 AT should be firing at the same time in both scenarios. To me, it is those laser shot firing and collision inconsistencies that make such levels tricky, and usually too difficult for me to solve.
> ============= TO ALL =============---------------------------------------------------------------------
> I received the following message from a player.
> What is your opinion?
> Hi Donald,There are a number of things to talk about here. First, it is not practical to consider such levels as not acceptable. Even if a level was designed without using such a trick, it is possible that someone's solution might include such a trick. So it is not practical for Donald (or anyone else in the GHS manager role) to watch every single submitted playback from those seeking a GHS to see if their solution happened to use a trick or not. Nor is it practical to go back and look at more than 18,000 levels and at more than 18,000 GHS playback files to see if they used any tricks.
>
> I have looked at Pono's tricks, in particular level 11, and I am
> amazed that this is accepted as a legal "trick".
> Has this ever been used before in any other level?
>
> Analysing the trick, there are 2 actions occurring.
> Firstly, the antitank moving along the thin ice is 'killed'.
> Surprisingly, it does not stop but continues moving along the thin
> ice !!!
> This is contrary to several actions that are built in to LaserTank.
> a/ When an antitank is killed it cannot be moved.
> b/ When a moving object is shot, it stops immediately.
> Both of these actions are universally accepted by solvers.
> Pono has discovered a trick that uses a mistake in the programming
> code to perform an exception to the rules.
>
> Secondly, the killed antitank is shot for the second time as it
> skates along thin ice.
> This time it freezes on top of thin ice.
>
> I believe that these are sufficient errors in programming to
> eliminate 'Pono's_trick_011' as a valid technique, and it should be
> deleted as not acceptable and any level using that trick should be
> deleted!
>
> The alternative is that one day another 'bug' will be discovered
> which will completely destroy the objective of the game.
>
> Let me know your thoughts.
I also feel that these tricks are using programming mistakes. If the program was in a testing phase, then I would feel the programming mistakes should be fixed. But the program was released a long time ago. So I feel it is fair to use such tricks, since it would be impractical to force people not to, as mentioned above. There are lots of things that are in LaserTank that were probably programming mistakes. Laser shots can sometimes go through a moving LT. Sometimes a moving LT can be killed from an AT that is 2 squares away; sometimes it can't. A laser shot can put a movable block or AT under the LT. To me, all of these things are not logical and, except for the last one, are difficult for me to understand well enough to predict. A vast number of levels use such things.
Having the availability of such tricks does allow the designers to create more difficult levels. Unless the level is such where it is obvious no other alternative exists or there are so few things to try (such as in that Poko Tricks level 11), I will never solve levels where the timing of shots is not logical to me and I would never rate such levels as Easy. And that is okay for me. I am glad there are more difficult levels for the expert solvers to solve, even if I will never solve them. I am also glad there are ratings for levels so that I can stick with Easy levels and avoid most Medium, Hard, and Deadly levels. There are lots of Easy levels for me to solve.
I disagree with the listed "actions that are built into LT". If an AT is in a tunnel that already has something in the other end of the tunnel, it can be killed and then it moves when the other end becomes empty. Also, if a movable block is moving on ice and it gets hit by a laser shot, it does not stop if there is ice on the opposite side of where it was hit, and nor should it stop in my opinion. In Poko Tricks level 11, I actually do not have a problem with the AT still moving when it gets killed. For me, it is a killing shot rather than a pushing shot. I also do not have a problem with the killed AT stopping when it gets shot again. Since it is already killed, that is a pushing shot and not a killing shot. For me, there are 2 other things that are illogical in that level. First, after the AT stops at M13, it should sink, being thin ice. If it was regular ice instead of thin ice, then I feel the entire AT movement is reasonable. The other thing that is illogical to me in that level is the laser shot firing and collision checking. If the LT moves to B5, then shoots the B6 AT, then moves to C5, then the LT will be killed by the P11 AT. But the LT does not killed by the P11 AT when the B6 AT is moving, even though to me it seems like the B6 AT should be firing at the same time in both scenarios. To me, it is those laser shot firing and collision inconsistencies that make such levels tricky, and usually too difficult for me to solve.