Hi Steve,
Fortunately, I still have the messages
you looked for. At that time, I was
new to the group (new player too); I
selected "NO EMAIL" as the option of
the group messages. I should visit the
group page to read the messages. I
copied these messages because of the
"LT undocumented features". I just
searched them in my old hard disks. I
found them. Here are the Messages
#4476 and #4484.
(Now my option is "INDIVIDUAL EMAIL".)
Bye,
Suyono
***** BEGIN MSG #4476 *****
From: "tedshutes <theo@i...>"
<theo@i...>
Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:09 pm
Subject: But... they're not bugs,
they're undocumented features!
I was amused by the message about the
"press twice bug". I don't know about
that particular bug, but I do know
about several others. Apparently there
is a distinction to be drawn between
"legitimate" and "illegitimate" bugs
in Laser Tank?
- A tank mover moves only the tank,
not *anything* else sitting on it. Not
even anti-tank guns.
- If the tank is sitting on a blocked
tank-mover on the square where it
starts, it can step backwards off it.
Hmmm... does the tank mover shut off
if something else is sitting on it?
Maybe just the square with the block
and the one behind it shut off?
- The tank can't safely ride a tank
mover past an anti-tank gun two
squares away, but if it can step onto
the tank-mover only two squares in
front of an anti-tank gun, it escapes
the shot. Let's see. Already moving:
at least three squares. Step on to it
to start moving: only two. What gives?
Isn't this slightly backwards?
- If the tank attempts to step onto
("bumps") the end of a tank-mover
going the wrong way, it is apparently
considered to have moved onto the tank
mover and immediately back off,
thereby triggering whatever action
would logically follow, including
re-entering a tunnel it might be
sitting on, or causing an anti-tank
gun aimed at the tank-mover square to
fire. In that case, the anti-tank gun
misses even if it's only ONE square
away!!! So which is it, one, two, or
three squares the tank has to be from
an anti-tank gun on a tank-mover to
miss getting hit??!
The tank CANNOT move anything if
something is on the far side of it.
Can't budge it, not with a million
shots. (Well, okay, not with 50 anyway
-- I never tried a million. ;)
HOWEVER, if an arrangement of mirrors
can be created to shoot something
moveable while the tank itself is
sitting on the far side of the shot,
it does move: UNDERNEATH the tank!
Sometimes the tank, when sitting on
something thus shot underneath it, is
considered "up", and sometimes not:
- It can, from this vantage point, now
safely shoot through bricks between it
and a facing anti-tank gun, because
the anti-tank guns cannot shoot "up".
- On the other hand, if the the shot
that moved whatever the tank is
sitting on is repeated, even if it's
a "bump" that triggers an anti-tank
gun, the shot now hits the tank, not
what it's sitting on!
- Likewise, the tank cannot move from
on top of whatever it's sitting on to
the top of something else sitting next
to it, even if it's another of the
very same item. Why not? Wouldn't that
only be logical?
Considering the number of levels I
can't solve, even though I have solved
several "deadly" ones, I am sure that
some of them rely on more of these
evidently "legitimate" bugs I still
haven't discovered. What is needed is
a tutorial, or at least better
documentation on which bugs are which.
Does anyone else feel this way?
-Ted
***** END MSG #4476 *****
***** BEGIN MSG #4484 *****
From: "tedshutes <theo@i...>"
<theo@i...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: But... they're not bugs,
they're undocumented features!
I only get the daily digest of
messages, but I see I caused quite a
stir!
"Suyono H. Yaphar" wrote: "I think the
level authors are fully aware of those
'undocumented features' so those
features became the rules in laser
tank." Yeah, that's exactly what I
meant when I wrote, "I am sure that
some of [the levels I can't solve]
rely on more of these evidently
'legitimate' bugs I still haven't
discovered."
Then he went on to say, "It is a bug,
not 'undocumented feature' because of
the inconsistency." Yep.
Gerry W wrote: "LaserTank doesn't copy
'real' life, it has a logic of it's
own." True. But to be logical, there
still have to be predictable,
consistently applied rules even in a
surreal environment. Otherwise, it's
just a guessing game. Which many
levels are.
Stephen Ryan had me laughing in tears
with his backhanded description of
this "logic": "I think most of the
quirks that you mentioned can be
explained. First, your tank ... is a
prototype developed in the late
twentieth century that employs alien
technology to operate in a
5-dimensional space-time. In order to
stabilize its hyperfield matrix, it
was built from advanced polymer alloys
that have been cooled with liquid
hydrogen and form a superconducting
outer shell to impede electromagnetic
propagation, with captured dark-matter
forming another inner thermal and
electromagnetic barrier." It went on
and got better: I don't know why it
wasn't printed in the digest, but if
you haven't read it, do visit
< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lasertank/message/4480 >,
it's a stitch!
Tobias Langhoff: "Most of these bugs
(or 'undocumented features') were
created unintentionally, but are left
in the program by Jim (the
programmer), because a huge amount of
levels rely on them in order to be
solved"; and before that he said,
"We should really make a list of ALL
known bugs and issues with Laser Tank
and put it up on the Utility Page." Oh
yes, great idea!
Back to Stephen Ryan: "I too think
that it might be fun to have a 'tips
and tricks' file that would identify
and name the quirky techniques of
lasertank. These might be considered
hints, but people could still have the
choice of reading them or not. I'd
like like to come up with names for
all these moves." This is similar to
my own thinking, a "Tutorials" levels
file, similar to the beginner levels
but with the levels specifically
created or chosen to highlight these.
These levels would have extensive,
almost giveaway hints, with those
hints being the point of the levels
file moreso than the puzzles
themselves. Stephen's names could be
included in the title and/or the hint.
I have started thinking about such a
levels file, I might even be qualified
to initially create it (given the
time), but I certainly am not
qualified to complete it.
A question for Donald would be, if I
(or anyone else for that matter)
started such a set of tutorial levels,
would it be possible for others with
additional insight to go back and edit
the titles, hints, and insert new
levels in the middle as appropriate to
maintain the flow of the tutorial?
Oh yeah, one for Stephen: what's the
difference between "2) 'General
Subversion', using a tank mover to
make an enemy shoot its laser for your
own purposes," and "5) 'Upstream
Subversion', fooling an enemy into
shooting by trying to go the wrong way
on a tank mover"?
Thanks, everyone! This is a great
group!!!
-Ted
***** END MSG #4484 *****
Steve wrote:
Fortunately, I still have the messages
you looked for. At that time, I was
new to the group (new player too); I
selected "NO EMAIL" as the option of
the group messages. I should visit the
group page to read the messages. I
copied these messages because of the
"LT undocumented features". I just
searched them in my old hard disks. I
found them. Here are the Messages
#4476 and #4484.
(Now my option is "INDIVIDUAL EMAIL".)
Bye,
Suyono
***** BEGIN MSG #4476 *****
From: "tedshutes <theo@i...>"
<theo@i...>
Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:09 pm
Subject: But... they're not bugs,
they're undocumented features!
I was amused by the message about the
"press twice bug". I don't know about
that particular bug, but I do know
about several others. Apparently there
is a distinction to be drawn between
"legitimate" and "illegitimate" bugs
in Laser Tank?
- A tank mover moves only the tank,
not *anything* else sitting on it. Not
even anti-tank guns.
- If the tank is sitting on a blocked
tank-mover on the square where it
starts, it can step backwards off it.
Hmmm... does the tank mover shut off
if something else is sitting on it?
Maybe just the square with the block
and the one behind it shut off?
- The tank can't safely ride a tank
mover past an anti-tank gun two
squares away, but if it can step onto
the tank-mover only two squares in
front of an anti-tank gun, it escapes
the shot. Let's see. Already moving:
at least three squares. Step on to it
to start moving: only two. What gives?
Isn't this slightly backwards?
- If the tank attempts to step onto
("bumps") the end of a tank-mover
going the wrong way, it is apparently
considered to have moved onto the tank
mover and immediately back off,
thereby triggering whatever action
would logically follow, including
re-entering a tunnel it might be
sitting on, or causing an anti-tank
gun aimed at the tank-mover square to
fire. In that case, the anti-tank gun
misses even if it's only ONE square
away!!! So which is it, one, two, or
three squares the tank has to be from
an anti-tank gun on a tank-mover to
miss getting hit??!
The tank CANNOT move anything if
something is on the far side of it.
Can't budge it, not with a million
shots. (Well, okay, not with 50 anyway
-- I never tried a million. ;)
HOWEVER, if an arrangement of mirrors
can be created to shoot something
moveable while the tank itself is
sitting on the far side of the shot,
it does move: UNDERNEATH the tank!
Sometimes the tank, when sitting on
something thus shot underneath it, is
considered "up", and sometimes not:
- It can, from this vantage point, now
safely shoot through bricks between it
and a facing anti-tank gun, because
the anti-tank guns cannot shoot "up".
- On the other hand, if the the shot
that moved whatever the tank is
sitting on is repeated, even if it's
a "bump" that triggers an anti-tank
gun, the shot now hits the tank, not
what it's sitting on!
- Likewise, the tank cannot move from
on top of whatever it's sitting on to
the top of something else sitting next
to it, even if it's another of the
very same item. Why not? Wouldn't that
only be logical?
Considering the number of levels I
can't solve, even though I have solved
several "deadly" ones, I am sure that
some of them rely on more of these
evidently "legitimate" bugs I still
haven't discovered. What is needed is
a tutorial, or at least better
documentation on which bugs are which.
Does anyone else feel this way?
-Ted
***** END MSG #4476 *****
***** BEGIN MSG #4484 *****
From: "tedshutes <theo@i...>"
<theo@i...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: But... they're not bugs,
they're undocumented features!
I only get the daily digest of
messages, but I see I caused quite a
stir!
"Suyono H. Yaphar" wrote: "I think the
level authors are fully aware of those
'undocumented features' so those
features became the rules in laser
tank." Yeah, that's exactly what I
meant when I wrote, "I am sure that
some of [the levels I can't solve]
rely on more of these evidently
'legitimate' bugs I still haven't
discovered."
Then he went on to say, "It is a bug,
not 'undocumented feature' because of
the inconsistency." Yep.
Gerry W wrote: "LaserTank doesn't copy
'real' life, it has a logic of it's
own." True. But to be logical, there
still have to be predictable,
consistently applied rules even in a
surreal environment. Otherwise, it's
just a guessing game. Which many
levels are.
Stephen Ryan had me laughing in tears
with his backhanded description of
this "logic": "I think most of the
quirks that you mentioned can be
explained. First, your tank ... is a
prototype developed in the late
twentieth century that employs alien
technology to operate in a
5-dimensional space-time. In order to
stabilize its hyperfield matrix, it
was built from advanced polymer alloys
that have been cooled with liquid
hydrogen and form a superconducting
outer shell to impede electromagnetic
propagation, with captured dark-matter
forming another inner thermal and
electromagnetic barrier." It went on
and got better: I don't know why it
wasn't printed in the digest, but if
you haven't read it, do visit
< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lasertank/message/4480 >,
it's a stitch!
Tobias Langhoff: "Most of these bugs
(or 'undocumented features') were
created unintentionally, but are left
in the program by Jim (the
programmer), because a huge amount of
levels rely on them in order to be
solved"; and before that he said,
"We should really make a list of ALL
known bugs and issues with Laser Tank
and put it up on the Utility Page." Oh
yes, great idea!
Back to Stephen Ryan: "I too think
that it might be fun to have a 'tips
and tricks' file that would identify
and name the quirky techniques of
lasertank. These might be considered
hints, but people could still have the
choice of reading them or not. I'd
like like to come up with names for
all these moves." This is similar to
my own thinking, a "Tutorials" levels
file, similar to the beginner levels
but with the levels specifically
created or chosen to highlight these.
These levels would have extensive,
almost giveaway hints, with those
hints being the point of the levels
file moreso than the puzzles
themselves. Stephen's names could be
included in the title and/or the hint.
I have started thinking about such a
levels file, I might even be qualified
to initially create it (given the
time), but I certainly am not
qualified to complete it.
A question for Donald would be, if I
(or anyone else for that matter)
started such a set of tutorial levels,
would it be possible for others with
additional insight to go back and edit
the titles, hints, and insert new
levels in the middle as appropriate to
maintain the flow of the tutorial?
Oh yeah, one for Stephen: what's the
difference between "2) 'General
Subversion', using a tank mover to
make an enemy shoot its laser for your
own purposes," and "5) 'Upstream
Subversion', fooling an enemy into
shooting by trying to go the wrong way
on a tank mover"?
Thanks, everyone! This is a great
group!!!
-Ted
***** END MSG #4484 *****
Steve wrote: